Why Gen Z Chooses Colleges Out of Fear, Not Hope | Gjergj Dollani

Gjergj Dollani: Hello. The following episode was initially recorded for the podcast Education Marketing Leader with Chris Raposo. I am including it here with permission. I was a guest on Chris's podcast and I felt the discussion was really interesting and wanted to bring it here as well. Enjoy.

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speaker-1: Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of The Education Marketing Leader with Chris Raposo. Today my guest is joining me from Washington, DC. His name is Jurge Dolani and he is a higher ed marketing expert at Clear Course Advisory. Jurge, welcome to the show.

speaker-0: Hey Chris, glad to be here. big fan of the show. Obviously been following you for for a while, so I'm I'm happy we're doing this.

speaker-1: Good to have you. Thank you so much for having me and Rob Clark on your show a couple of weeks ago. But today the roles are reversed and I'm gonna be asking the questions. But I n I know that you're as a podcaster, you may have some questions for me as well if the muse hit ya. But today's topic will be on how students evaluate colleges today, because a lot has changed over the years. Now, George and I we met while I was at the NC MPR National Conference in Washington DC and we met at a cafe in DC in March and we had a great conversation around higher ed and student journeys and he mentioned that students today don't seem obsessed with finding the best college anymore. Feels more like they're trying to avoid making the wrong choice. George, when did you start noticing that shift?

speaker-0: Yeah. I'll I'll actually take a couple of steps back. It's it's it's it's interesting because we we covered this topic with our mutual friend Faton Sopa at Manafer. We had a a webinar talking specifically about this issue. They had done they do their yearly student study research with over twelve hundred students, where they try to identify what are some of the basically the starting points in the discovery journey, right? And one of the things that and I was looking at the research and I had seen a a bunch of research from from RL specifically, on the fear drivers right of of the process, like what are some of the things that applicants are trying to avoid in the application process? And one of the things that I noticed is that everything is all driven by fear. Right. So so some of the questions that were being asked were, you know, will this job that I'm applying or with this job which degree I'm actually getting will exist in the future? is two hundred thousand dollars in debt really worth it, right? Because because as we know, Education is is an experiential purchase, right? you know, unlike a car where you actually pay the money and you get the car you drive and you say, this I don't like this and you return it to the dealer, in education you don't find out whether, you know, you've it was worth it or not after four years and couple hundred thousand dollars of of expenses and you're out there in the job market and you're realizing that you're not as competitive as you are. Right? So so what's happening is students are not necessarily looking for the best college, right? they're looking for the right college where they avoid regret. You know, a and and I thought about that and I said, you know, twenty years ago when I was applying for, you know, c college or or my master's program my entire generation was very hopeful, right? Like we didn't it wasn't fear driven, it was hope driven in like, you know, we're going to get a degree, we're going to get a great job, we're going to double our salaries, we're going to contribute in one way or another. And this new generation is actually the choice is driven by fear. I and that's that's my hypothesis.

speaker-1: Yeah. No, that's that makes a lot of sense. I mean you see the headlines with people are being s so much into debt that they cannot get out ever because the only jobs they're gonna get is working as a at a star because of barista with their degree which is completely unfortunate and it's it's a terrible outlook if somebody looks at college or university to get the degree and then you know, supply and demand there are so many people that now have a college degree more than ever before. So that's another way to to find yourself in that in that fear based environment.

speaker-0: Just kind of follow back on on that point you're making, it actually I feel like it's it's going to get worse. It's not going to get any better. Right? Because not only do you have the fear of will my degree be around when I graduate, will the job be there when I graduate, you also have this other thing where there's going to be a huge number of colleges and universities that are either going to merge or just close down, right? So now you the next question is am I am I putting my money on a college that will shut down in two years? And you don't know, right? Because it's it's so hard for you to understand what the finances of the institutions of the institution are, right? If you look at the list of colleges that have closed in the past two to three years, there are some that I think the the sixth oldest college in America just closed a couple of years ago. Right. So so if you look at trajectory and you're like, this this university is still gonna be around, has been around for two hundred years. Well guess what? Right? So I think I think it it it really makes college choice much more difficult and there's a lot of things coming from all sides that are affecting our industry.

speaker-1: Absolutely. Now since this is a higher ed marketing show, do you think that changes how universities should market themselves because that's a very different mindset than the older prestige driven search was in the past when students are looking for a university?

speaker-0: Yeah. I I think they have, right? If you go through their websites, if you go through a lot of the materials, they're all about alleviating those fears, right? Here is what our campus looks like and here's how happy everybody is and you know, look at what the outcome is by this graduating class and how much money they're making and what jobs they're getting and look at all of the support that we're putting in our career services to ensure that you know, you're going to to have the skills that you need. So I I think I think that's that's definitely there. But it does require a retooling, you know, off the marketing staff to understand that you know, they're they're dealing with with a different kind of product now that they're selling.

speaker-1: Absolutely. And is isn't everything in in sales or marketing, you have to address the objection from the get go. Mm-hmm. And the other thing is, you know, we we always talk about success stories, social proof, but then with this AI driven world, you don't know what's gonna happen in four years. How is the job market gonna be affected? So today's success story of somebody who went through the to the program may not be applicable in four years when AI has, you know, changed the job market, the labor market again. So is there any way you would address that in higher ed marketing, maybe say, hey, we're on the cutting edge of AI, we're implementing AI courses within your within your programs so to make sure that you're ready when you enter the job market?

speaker-0: Yeah. I I I've read this I read an article I wanna say six months ago and I I'll I'll have to go look back at it who wrote it, but it was it was kinda like a light bulb for me. and and what the article was talking about is how College will change just the the way higher education is served will change where it's not four years anymore, but you're actually it's almost like a subscription service, right? Like you you apply for a subscription model and you have it for as long as you need it. You can have it for the next eighty years and you have access to the institution, right, through your subscription model to get retooled all the time. Like there's a new skill that's available, you go take that class. There's a new, you know, you get get that micro degree, but it's always available to you through that subscription model. So that you're not sitting in class for four years, right? But you're kind of working, retooling, working, retooling, working, retooling for the rest of your life. and and I mean it made a lot of sense for me. Not to say that the four year institution will will shut down, right? But but there's definitely going to be parallel services that I think will be better at keeping people trained at the pace of technology than than what it is right now.

speaker-1: And would these would these students pick courses from different schools or would this be for one particular school that cons continuously offers that subscription model?

speaker-0: Yeah. I I mean I I I look at it as thinking of subscription model, I'm thinking s you know, Spotify, Apple Music, things like that, right? Once you get stuck with something, like I used to listen to Apple music and then I switched to Spotify and I don't even know where Apple music is in my iPhone anymore. Right? Because that's I'm already used to the platform, I'm already used to finding the things that I have. So a and and one of the things, Chris, that we know is that most universities, roughly about sixty percent of the students live within fifty miles of of the institution anyway. So there's there's really kind of a a geographical stronghold. I don't know if stronghold is the word, but but a hold that universities have specifically in in their in the region where where they exist. Now if you're a big brand like Harvard and if you're a big brand like you know some of these big universities, of course there's going to you're going to draw people there, but I think most people would would be better served with their local local institution.

speaker-1: Yeah, that brings me to my next question because you brought up geography and comfort levels in a past conversation. Do you feel you do do you do students feel safer staying closer to home now compared to previous generation and why is that?

speaker-0: Of course. I mean th and this is this has nothing to do with with college itself. I think it has to do with just you know Gen Z in general, right? I are you are you familiar with Jonathan Height? he he's written a couple of books on you know the his latest one was the anxious generation mm and I'm a huge fan of he's he's a I I think a psychology professor at NYU. I'm a huge fan of of his work. one of the things that that he talks about is how this new generation, basically people that were born after the eighties, in nineties and especially two thousands, are very, very different from the previous generations Because th you know, they they in in one of his books he said they did a study where they looked at people that were born in the seventies and eighties and they asked them, When was the first time that you actually got to do something on your own outside of the view of your parents? Right? Like You know, went to a friend's house on a bike or bought something at the convenience store or something like that. And the average eight w the average age was eight. Okay, eight or nine. And then they asked people who were born after the two thousands when was the first time they did something completely on their own. The average age was fourteen. Right? So think about it this way. Now, four years later, you're going to tell these kids to leave Alabama, go to Michigan State, live on their own, pay their bills and and take care of themselves. Their anxiety level is like No, because they they're just not used to being independent, right? So I I think and and I and and and I think you see this happening. I think most people are actually opting to go to universities that are close to their to their house. Or if they travel, it's only two hours by car. Right. So parents are very close and then you you also get these situations where they go to school during the week and then they go home in the weekend, do laundry and then go back to school, you know, Monday through Friday, right? So yeah, it's I I think the behavior is changing. You know?

speaker-1: That makes sense though, you know, because you want something to fall back on if you f don't feel like you have a have a group that you feel like you belong to on campus if you live on the dorms. I have a lot of people that live here in North Atlanta area. They go either to Auburn University or they go to Clemson and it's about a two, three hour drive and I see these college kids, they're they're here every couple of weeks, you know. They're not just they're not gonna be there the whole semester, they just drop in on the week for a little bit more, which helps a lot. I mean, I think it's really been beneficial because you still have the roots and the ties to your home and it just gives you that extra comfort to to know that you can come back to something when things are getting a little bit rough. And to your point with let's do something a little

speaker-0: Yeah. Let let me ask you this, you know? So 'cause we have similar experiences where we we left our home countries and we came here, and I don't know if you came here with your family, but think of how valuable that was where you're so far away you just have to figure things on your own. Right? It I'm not saying it's not tough. I'm not saying it's it's you know. but but don't you feel like Everything you do today, everything you know today about yourself is you kind of separating from from your parents from the nest and just kind of figuring out who you are, right?

speaker-1: Yep, yep, yep. It did definitely did stretch me. It made me a a different person. I'm not the same person I was before because I didn't have that support, right? And I had to figure it out. And there was no way to go home. I couldn't drive home. I couldn't you know. So it was rough though, really. I mean sometimes I'm pee I mean I'm better for it, but as a parent as a parent I my my object my default is protect. You know, protect the can

speaker-0: Yeah. I mean I'm I'm I'm the same way, but I but I think there there is if you are a a higher ed institution, right? And you're very good at targeting your messaging to your right audience, Right. I feel like there is a message there to be made to attract people who live farther from your campus than fifty miles, right? By saying because you know, if you think about what's happening nowadays, there's this You know, when you ask Gen Z what their biggest worry is, is this this lack of meaning, right? Like this sense of what's what's the meaning of all this and and it's like, hey, this is you know, you you can do this. You can you can come out here and look at all the resources that we have and and and figure out it's kinda like that army be all you can be message, right? And I and I think universities could adopt something like that. I mean obviously it's not going to work to a you know to a broader market, but but if you're really good at at at identifying y you know, some of your prospects, I think that message would work well.

speaker-1: Hey everyone, I hope you're enjoying the episode so far. Quick break to tell you about my new book that I co-authored with Rob Clark called The Attention Gap, Why Great Schools Stay Invisible and How to Fix It. We wrote it for higher ed marketers and Roman leaders and anyone trying to reach students in today's noisy scroll happy world. It's built from 130 plus episodes and conversations with higher ed leaders from this show, plus Rob's experience growing that tall family to over 4 billion views online. You unpack why the old marketing playbook isn't working any longer and what you can do about it instead to fix that. If your team is serious about closing the gap between great programs and real visibility online, this book is for you. Grab your copy of the attention gap today on Amazon and now back to the episode. better than you were before or and it's like it's their mold, you know. And

speaker-0: Absolutely.

speaker-1: you wanna come out transformed after four years. You don't you don't want to be the same person you were when you stepped out of high school when you go into college and go into the labor market. So Trade schools versus college, this conversation is everywhere right now. We talked about that a little bit too. What do you think people are getting wrong or oversimplifying about that debate? Because you know, we say college is not for everyone, but so is trade school. I went through trade school before and I hated it. And I went to college and I love it now where I where I am.

speaker-0: Yeah. I I read a book and I I think we discussed this earlier in in some earlier conversations, that I I think made a a profound effect on me. It was a book that I picked up at at at a museum actually, called Trade Class as Soul Craft. and it's it's basically about You know, the author was kind of semi memoir where the author was talking about how he you know got his PhD in philosophy and and was head of a think tank for a while and then decided that you know doing some some research on trade schools and trade classes through the think tank decided he wanted to dedicate his time and and life to that, left his job and and opened up a a motorcycle repair or a car re repair shop. And and the entire book is is a philosophical discussion of the value of trade classes, right? Because if you think about it, you know, most high schools have closed down their trade shops. And the reason for that is because one, they're expensive to maintain, right? The the woodwork shop and the the the metal shops, they're expensive to maintain. And two, a risk of injury, right? So the school doesn't want to deal with, you know, my kid got hurt and and have to go through through the the losses that come with it. Right? So now you have all These young generations that do not get their hands on a hammer, a nail, or I mean even know how to sew something, right? Like if a button falls off, right? but there's much more value to that from a developmental standpoint than just strictly being able to finish a task, right? It's it's you know, using your hands really enhances your your your brain as well. so so the whole book was kind of making the case that we need to return these classics. classes in K through twelve. But now with with AI with with the way technology is is is going if you kind of and again I don't want to get into a philosoph philosophical discussion about technology, but but if you look through history, every technological advancement basically has been able to separate the human from the task. Right so we trust technology, mechanics and now information technology to do a better job than humans. And and it actually does, right? Of course of of course if you give me the type of paper out it'll be full of errors, but if you tell AI to do something, you know the grammar and everything Is going to correct. The information may be wrong, but you're not going to have that human error in there, right? So it's easier, same thing with the typewriters. Like, why would you need a whole room full of typewriters when a computer can, you know, or photocopiers, you know, can do that. So same thing with AI. If you think about, you know, kind of AI, right? At least if I think about AI, is it's kind of taking that human task work out, right? A lot of the things that a researcher can do by going and finding different data anywhere else and it'll take six months to do, Chadjipti can do it in in ten minutes, right? Right. So bringing back trade classes, and now people are kind of realizing well this is the kind of thing that I can do that I am still the main Input, right? Like if you're crafting something with wood or or fixing car or something, you are the main input. You know, nothing can come in and and do that. So and and you're seeing that, you know, there's a lot of like HVAC, for example, the demand for HVAC certification has skyrocketed. because it's it's one of those things that once it breaks you need somebody to come and fix it. So people are retooling. We have this conversation all the time. I I'm gonna go back to your question because the question is if I understood it correctly like you know how how do students navigate whether they should go that way or whether they should go to college. I have this discussion all the time with my wife. Both my wife and I went through the traditional you know, go through education, get your degree and do what your degree tells you that you can do, right? and we feel like because that's what we know, we feel like our kids need to do that because it's a safer way to a a better life. And statistics also show that people with college degrees have better life outcomes than people without college degrees. But for the first time last year, right? People with high school degrees, were finding jobs much, much, much easier than people with college degrees. And if you look at a chart, it's always been like this. And last year it just went like this. Right? So if you had a college degree, now you're at a disadvantage in the job market. But if you don't, you're at a better advantage because there's more jobs that are not information based jobs than there are, you know, jobs for college grad students, which is basically information jobs. So We're we're kind of going through this with my wife. My wife is very you know, they need to go to college and I'm like, yeah, let's just get to trade school. If they want to go to college is there. Right? You can apply for college when you're twenty two. Yeah. Right? But you do that after you've figured out that now you have a trade and you now you need information. Right. You have the skill. You just need to know how to use that skill in the broader scheme so that you can make a living.

speaker-1: Yeah. So that's what I actually did. I went through trade school in Germany. I was a concrete finisher, so I finished my three year apprenticeship and then after that I immigrated to the United States because I knew that's not what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. Started over. But yeah, it did i it definitely taught me work ethic. Now to your being said, high school graduates have a higher success rate in getting a job versus the ones in college. I wonder if the high school grads are less selective than like college grads because they're like, hey, I got a college degree in this particular field, I wanna get a job in that field and they don't, you know, broaden their horizon or look outside the box a little bit. I wonder if that's part of that that reasoning.

speaker-0: Yeah, I mean that's that's also It it it could be part of it as well. But let's not forget, you know, Meta just let go of you know, one eighth of his entire workforce. And we're talking about, you know, eight thousand of the smartest engineers out there who are able to get a job there and work there, right? So these people are now out in the job market competing with people who just graduated. Of course there's no chance, you know, somebody who's graduating is g yeah again, obviously I'm I'm simplifying 'cause the the the salary requirements are going to be different. Different. But but you're you're seeing this across the board, right? Like what's happening is a lot of people that graduate from college are at that point in their career where a lot of that work can be done strictly by AI. Right? So So if I were a a business owner and I had to pay, you know, college grad eighty thousand dollars for a a task that I can pay a twenty-five dollar a month service to AI to do maybe not as good but faster, of course I'd choose that, right? so so it's it's I I think it's a tougher market than than we think it is.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. No, it is for sure. Now you you touched on business ownership a little bit and before joining the hired industry you were in the premium chocolate business, owning your own shop where hospitality is key when marketing to customers. You know what were some of the first things you noticed where universities just approach marketing differently than the business world?

speaker-0: Yeah, let me take a a a few steps back. 'cause my journey through higher ed is not the traditional trajectory that a lot of people take. I actually started out in in traditional brand management in C P G. I was a brand manager in the food industry and and chocolate included for about fifteen years, you know, managing various brands like Lynn Chocolate and things like that. for different markets in the US and and Europe as well. and then I decided at some point that okay, this is I've I've had enough of office work and packaging and and product development. I wanted to do my own thing so I decided to just open a a chocolate shop in in downtown DC. and and there it was it was fun because for me, you know, I'm I come from a traditional marketing background. I've also taught marketing in in in college. It was interesting because you you talk about these things and you do them at a big scale, you know, when you're working for a big brand, but now you actually have to see the customer in the face while you're actually handing them the product. And they you know right away whether it was great or not. so so it was it was kind of in interesting as well because what a small business does for you is full ownership of your PL, you know, your profit and loss analysis. Right? when you work at a Big institution, you're a little bit protected, right? If you lose a million dollars, it's considered a lesson. we lost a million dollars. Well lesson, don't do it again, or yeah, you know. and and you move on. When it's your own business, you don't have that luxury. Even losing a hundred dollars, it's a hundred dollars that could have gone somewhere else that could be a detriment to your business and your investment and and your your family as well, right? So the decisions that you make are Yeah. strictly based on your PNL, right? So when I joined higher ed, which is actually totally by chance, you know, one of the clients at the at the shop was the president of a of a small local university here and and he knew my background so we would talk shop all the time. and one day and I actually have that in the book, but one day he said, Hey we have a marketing meeting you know my team there's they're they're they're looking to spend about their there's this marketing just see they're proposing a $270,000 spend. I'm I'm I just do you mind just coming to you know just sitting in that meeting so I have a another pair of ears to see you know if this is the right thing for us to do or not. Right? So I said to this meeting and and again a lot of these people in the meeting were my customers at the shop. So they they're looking at me, they're going, hey what's the chocolate man doing here? Right? Because we never kind of talked about my background. And so I'm sitting there at that meeting and th that's the first thing that I noticed. That it's like y you know, money was not even part of the discussion in the sense that i it's the because it's not mine. It's com not coming out of my pocket. Okay, well is it two hundred seventy thousand dollars? Okay, well can you give us like a ten percent discount, right? Or or Can we take this out and make it two hundred? and you're like, Well that's not what the discussion should be. The discussion should be outcome. Right? And if the outcome is what you want, then this is money well spent. But if the outcome is not what you want, then you should start with that premise, right? so so long story short, I think they ended up spending roughly about, you know, fifty thousand dollars and kind of picked up a a couple of things after the recommendation. and then he's you know, he said, Hey, do you wanna come manage marketing for for for the university? Which was a huge learning curve for me. but also it was great because again, You know, I approached it from a money standpoint. What's the PNL? and and the first goal there was, okay, can we spend the can we spend half of the money that we're spending now and achieve the same result? Right? Like and and that was perfect because you didn't have to grow, but but from a from a bottom line standpoint, you know, and from a president from university president standpoint, that was a great job done, right? so so that's I I think that's One of the things that I see in the industry and the recommendation that I make to a lot of people that I kind of mentor now in in the process where hey it's great that you're here, go get another job. Right. Go see how it works somewhere else outside of this industry, and then come back here and use that to improve here. Because if you look at people who have been in the industry, A lot of them have been to the same university for twenty-five, thirty years, right? But you might know the ins and out of your institution, but can you really say that you really understand the market, right? Can you really you really understand what marketing is doing and how s things are evolving. and again, you know, long answer, but one other thing that industries do outside of higher education, it's a thing called benchmarking, right? So for example, like we were in chocolate, one of the things that we would do, we would go to a toothpaste company and just look at their processes, right? Completely different products, different ingredients, different everything else. But if we notice that they had done something in their process that you know, warehousing or whatever, that worked for us, so of course we would incorporate it in in our process. As well. So and I and I think you know, I think I would love to see that in higher ed, where you have, you know, heads of marketing just going to a completely unrelated business and and seeing how they handle their processes, right? At the end of the day, you're selling a product to a consumer, right? And you know, sometimes we think Well we're doing education is very different and we forget that at the end of the day you're you're meeting a demand just like the people that are selling toothpaste are, right?

speaker-1: That's right. And the the president you you met at your coffee shop, you were forward thinking for bringing you in and having a different perspective. And you also talked about a lot of these marketers being in their institutions for the last twenty to thirty years and they go to the same higher ed marketing conferences where they get ideas from their peers. But why do you think universities struggle to borrow ideas from the outside of the industry?

speaker-0: Because there's there's zero cross pollination, right? Like, you know, if if all I'm doing is is enrollment marketing, advertising, you know, let's say I mean in your position, in my position, you know, all we see is marketing agencies that only do higher ed marketing, right? So they're only bringing things that they see from other universities. And I'm sure I mean I'm not tr I'm not trying to simplify, I'm sure they're very smart, I'm sure they've done work with other institutions, but a lot of the work is actually based on on higher ed. So what you're actually doing is you're a lot of the times and I'm I'm sure you've seen this as well, where a lot of agencies come to you and what they propose is they propose something that has worked for another university. look at what GW did. look at what you know so and so did and we could if we could kind of retool it and retweak it for our market we could, you know, we could have these results or better results. So that's one. The other thing is y as as a as a higher ed professional, you're also only going to higher ed you know, conferences, right? Whereas w if you're in the industry If you work in an industry, every single role has their own trade shows that they go to, right? So if you're in accounting, you go to an accounting show where there's people from you know, medicine and there's people from all these different kind of environments. So you're seeing everything. I think I think our industry is very kind of insulary. and I think that's why that's why I think there's also a lot of sameness. Right? If you look at all the marketing materials and you just cover the logo, you couldn't tell what university you're talking about. They all just kind of feel the same, right? same thing, same beautiful campus, green campus, same smiley face. And if you don't know you know what is the the main statue at XYZ University, you you wouldn't know which university you're talking about. So

speaker-1: Yeah, no, that that makes a lot of sense and that brings me to the the thought that When you see these higher ed marketing jobs, they prefer people that come from within the industry, right? So again, if somebody from another university to work there instead of looking to people from outside the in industry. but I know a college called South College out of Knoxville, Tennessee, and I had Kathleen Stockham, their chief marketing officer, on my show. And she started it four years ago, but before that she was in jeweller television marketing, right? It's completely outside the industry, but she revitalized that that college and they have exploded ever since she she joined the university because she just had ideas from outside higher ed that she brought in and the marketing has just you know done such a great job. So I always tell people maybe you know when you're looking for your next marketing leader, look from outside the industry.

speaker-0: They are. The they are. University of New Hampshire's head of marketing was you know, somebody from from Lynn who I'd worked with in the past and a very, very successful marketing leader and and obviously they're you know, so I I think universities are learning, but again, it's it's slow, right? Sometimes you don't realize you have a problem until it's too late to fix the problem.

speaker-1: Right, right, right, right. You and you wanna be there a a lot of leaders have obviously are risk averse too, right? 'Cause if they say, Hey, I brought this CMO from this college down there, they had a great track record and if they don't succeed at our university, you know, that's one thing. But if I bring in somebody from the outsider who had no track record in our univers in our industry, it's kinda on me that I made that gamble. So something to think about as well.

speaker-0: I I will also say though, marketers in higher ed have the toughest job. and and the reason for that is because marketing by default is boring, right? In the sense that you it it it takes a long time to build mental and physical availability. You can't just kind of spend the money now and expect you know your enrollment to go up by a hundred percent yeah months. Right? It it takes such a long time for people to to make that purchase. And again, the at any point in time there's only nine percent of your actual market that's looking for your profit product right so so even if you have a list of people who are age eighteen only nine percent of them are actually looking for specifically the product that you offer at that point in time right and and now they have to contend with university professor I mean presidents who are like well what's my enrollment numbers you know where where's I need I need my tuition money why are you giving so many discounts and and this and that right so and and it's never enough right so so it's a it's a really tough job and and I can see why people that are outside the industry are also reluctant to take it because the demands are just kind of the the the demands of the job do not meet what the job really kind of does, right? So you have to have I think a president who's a visionary who understands that this is a long term investment, this is not going to turn it around. and it's tough, you know. I at one university that I was working with, the way the the university or the president kind of thought about it is like, I'm spending this much money, how many students do I get to see at the end of the semester? You know, and you're like, well it doesn't work that way. You you know, technically if you run the numbers you should see thirty more students, but they would be spread out. over a longer period of time because they're not out there right now looking for your product, here's the money, you know, here's the student. And that also makes selling into academic institutions much, much harder because it's like, well we're spending the money but we don't, you know, I wanna see the results now. So so it's a it's a I think it's a tough industry for marketers.

speaker-1: Absolutely. Great episode. George, tell us a little bit about Clear Course Advisory and how people can connect with you after this.

speaker-0: yeah, so ClearCourse Advisory is the address is Clearcourse Advisory dot CO. so we've we've we basically what we focus on is we look at identifying gaps in your funnel, so both operational and and also from a from a communication standpoint, and and work on on that and specifically the messaging. so ClearCourseAdvisory.co and yeah.

speaker-1: Awesome. And people can connect with you how LinkedIn?

speaker-0: LinkedIn for sure, Jerry Delani and I'm actually I'm gonna plug in something. I'm about to publish a book so it's it it goes online. What's the word? You're you're an author. What what do you say? Published it

speaker-1: Yeah it's gonna be published on Amazon, I assume?

speaker-0: On Amazon, specifically starting June first and then probably your favorite bookshop by the end of summer. It's it's it's really you know, my it's I I decided to write a book on what I learned from my four years managing and running Cafe Chocolate in downtown D C and how you can incorporate a lot of those how I incorporated a lot of those marketing things that I knew to to the shop itself. you know, a lot of people have and I I turned it into a podcast. A lot of people have used the podcast to open their own coffee shop, so so I figured this would be a a good thing to

speaker-1: Awesome man. Well congratulations on the book. And tag

speaker-0: Thank you so much.

speaker-1: you after the show so people can get in touch with you.

speaker-0: Yeah, Chris, it was it was a lot of fun. Thank you.

speaker-1: And that's a wrap for this episode, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in to Education Marketing Leader Podcast this week. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to share it with your friends and your network. And if you ever thought about starting your own podcast, now that you listen to one and you got inspired, reach out to me via DM. We'd love to help you launch your own. We'll take care of everything for you. The scripting, the strategy, the editing, the distribution. All you have to do is show up, connect with the audience, and build your personal brand. So if you're ready for it, Let's chat. And for everybody else, we'll see you next time at the Education Market Leader podcast. Take care, friends.